Other Questions & Answers

Which standard? AIA supports several standards. In general I would say the answer is no but it will depend on the standard and also the camera -- with Camera Link there's no "standard" command / response protocol, the standard just provides for a connection but it's up to the camera mfg. to decide what to say across it, and most don't require an ack (even if they send one).

Answered by:
Randall Henderson
Senior Software Engineer
EDT
randall [at] edt [dot] com
(503) 748-7896

GigE is not a deterministic process, unlike CameraLink. While under GigE, a user needs to be aware that whilst using Windows (not a real time OS), there can be latencies in the order of ~10msec up to ~200msec...this of course is underterminestic. The auto discovery system can take up to a couple of seconds, even if the IP of the cameras are Static. If the application requires the system to be deterministic, then CameraLink is the choice of technology to use. If you have any additional questions please contact: JP luevano Strategic Account Manager P: 514-333-1301 x4223 E: jp.luevano@teledynedalsa.com

Answered by:
Christine Fagone
Sales Administration Manager
Teledyne DALSA
christine [dot] fagone [at] teledynedalsa [dot] com
(978) 670-2041

Camera Link HS (CLHS) has a bidirectional command or message channel generally used to control the camera operating mode or read camera status information. The hardware layer of CLHS guarantees message delivery with data resend on error or hardware acknowledge timeouts. The software layer that runs on the hardware layer is specified as GenCP which has software handshaking and messages are acknowledge at this layer as well. The average effective data rate from frame grabber to camera depends on the design of the camera and the frame grabber but can send 1k bytes at 312 MBytes/sec.

Answered by:
Mike Miethig
Camera Link HS Chair
Teledyne DALSA
mike [dot] miethig [at] teledynedalsa [dot] com
(519) 886-6000 x2130

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Hi Marten: The M-Protocol and the IP core is currently designed to support 3.125 Gbps per lane. An effective bandwidth of 300 MByte/sec of data transfer per lane is achieved for a packet size of about 1k bytes,. The IP core supports 7 lanes which is the maximum supported in the CX4 cable, and results in 2.1 GB/s per cable. For multiple cable applications a second core is used to support the communication query functions of the slave frame grabber. 3.125 Gbps enables copper cable distances of 15 meter to be reliably achieved when driven directly from an FPGA. We use an equalizer chip in the camera to account for varying cable loses and the TLK3134 is used in the current frame grabber.

Answered by:
Mike Miethig
Camera Link HS Chair
Teledyne DALSA
mike [dot] miethig [at] teledynedalsa [dot] com
(519) 886-6000 x2130

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Hi Maria, I was wondering if you ever received an answer to your question. If not, please let me know (via email) and I will have the appropriate person follow up with you to resolve your issue. Thanks, Christine Fagone

Answered by:
Christine Fagone
Sales Administration Manager
Teledyne DALSA
christine [dot] fagone [at] teledynedalsa [dot] com
(978) 670-2041

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Hi Bill - Seeing that you are a manufacturer of stamped metal parts I am betting you want to inspect them after stamping. As with all things to be inspected you must present the part to the camera with some degree of repeatability. The amount of repeatability required depends on the size of the things you need to inspect. Notice I didnt say want to inspect. Of course we want to inspect every part for every possible defect. That is an infinite loop. Try not to go there and inspect only what is really important. Once you have defined what you need to inspect, then the job of part presentation becomes a material handling job. Remember you will need to specify the allowable repeatabilty in all six dimensions of freedom for each thing you need to inspect. That was the long answer. The short answer is to try and capture all the stamped parts in some sort of orientation. Then use feeder bowls and pick and places (or robots) to place each part in a nest on the wheel.

Answered by:
David Wyatt
CEO
Automation Doctor Incorporated
david [dot] wyatt [at] automation-doctor [dot] com
(574) 344-7936

Bill, I might have an answer for you with regards to some technology that isn't released yet, but the company is looking for pilotplants for the technology. I will say though it is targeted at your specific problem. If you're interested send me an email with your contact info, and we can talk off line. Andy

Answered by:
Andrew Long
CEO
Cyth Systems, Inc.
andy [dot] long [at] cyth [dot] com
888 508 7355

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Hello Steve, You may want to contact APG (Allison Park, PA) or automVimation (Baden-Württemberg, Germany). They offer camera enclosures and mounting brackets that should meet your requirements.

Answered by:
Matthew Hori
GEViCAM Inc.
matth [at] gevicam [dot] com
(408) 945-9900

Steven, What is the camera you are using, I might be able to suggest something for this.

Answered by:
Andrew Long
CEO
Cyth Systems, Inc.
andy [dot] long [at] cyth [dot] com
+1 (888) 508 7355

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Not to my knowledge. How about using GigE? Pleora makes a Camera Link to GigE converter.

Answered by:
David Dechow
President
Aptúra Machine Vision Solutions
ddechow [at] aptura [dot] com
517-655-7860 x11

I don't recall ever having seen them, but if you could accept GigE instead of FireWire, please take a look at our PT1000-CL (http://www.pleora.com/our-products/iport-video-transmitters/iport-pt1000-cl).

Answered by:
John Phillips
Sr. Product Manager
Pleora Technologies
john [dot] phillips [at] pleora [dot] com
(613) 270-0625

Not that I'm aware of. But fiberoptic and coaxial are options.

Answered by:
Randall Henderson
Senior Software Engineer
EDT
randall [at] edt [dot] com
(503) 748-7896

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Hi Brian, You could have a separate channel, but then you might not be able to positively associate your metadata with the exact frame of video. Your best bet is to use the "chunk" feature of the GigE Vision spec. This way, the image and the metadata come in the same GVSP block. Just ensure that your receiver (SDK?) supports this. Another way to do it is to insert 1 or more extra "lines" in the image. If the receiver tries to display these extra lines, they will appear as junk, but the idea is that your application would strip off the extra lines before displaying the image. This works well if you control the software receiver, but not so well if your camera needs to be used with an off-the-shelf software package like LabView, Cognex, etc. Hope this helps. Please let me know if I can provide more information. JP

Answered by:
John Phillips
Sr. Product Manager
Pleora Technologies
john [dot] phillips [at] pleora [dot] com
(613) 270-0625

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You can download a copy of the GigE Vision standard by providing your contact information at http://www.visiononline.org/form.cfm?form_id=701. The GVSP definitions are contained within the GigE Vision standard document. As for the sensor readout time, the information may be contained in the camera's manual or datasheet - try contacting the manufacturer directly for this information. Otherwise, it can be calculated by knowing the resolution (height and width), number of taps, and pixel clock frequency.

Answered by:
John Phillips
Sr. Product Manager
Pleora Technologies
john [dot] phillips [at] pleora [dot] com
(613) 270-0625

Jellad, The description of the GVSP header can be found in the specificaiton which you can download from the website: http://www.visiononline.org/vision-standards-details.cfm?type=5 The sensor readout time will vary by camera manufacture so you would be best to contact the manufacture to understand this.

Answered by:
Geoff Roddick
Application Engineering Manager, Pleora Technologies
Pleora Technologies
(613) 270-0625

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Mark, You can use laser triangulation 3D vision systems to measure volume. These are basically a line of laser and a camera moving across an irregular surface will give a number of profiles across the surface. If you want to know more send me an email address and I'll be able to send you some images of what I'm talking about which may help you. Best of luck.

Answered by:
Andrew Long
CEO
Cyth Systems, Inc.
andy [dot] long [at] cyth [dot] com
888 508 7355

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Hello Shoahua, You need a case with thermal conductivity of absolute zero to achieve your goal and I tell you, it is impossible! If the surrounding environment of your camera is 80 degrees, the temperature of your camera will be 80 degrees after some time, and the time will be defined by the thermal conductivity of the camera's case. The lower the conductivity, the longer it takes for your cameras to reach the temperature of environment. So, forget about a heat isolating case, what you need is a cooling system. A cold water cooling system will be sufficient for your application. Search for "water cooled camera housing" in any search engine (i.e. Google, Bing etc...) and you will find a lot of manufacturers which build this type of camera housing.

Answered by:
Kasra Ravanbakhsh
Managing Director
Kasra Hooshmand Engineering Co., P.J.S. (KDI)
kasra [at] kdi-co [dot] com
98 21 8867 8023

I agree that active cooling will be required. We use and recommend APG Enclosures for extended temperature applications... http://apgvision.com/

Answered by:
Steve Maves
Manager of Application Engineering
Datalogic Automation
stevem [at] pptvision [dot] com
(952) 996-9504

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Sounds like you have enough software. Focus on Optics and Lighting to have a serious career. I would add coordinate transformation math as well.

Answered by:
David Wyatt
CEO
Automation Doctor Incorporated
david [dot] wyatt [at] automation-doctor [dot] com
(574) 344-7936

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Hi Ken, Both broadcast and unicast discovery messages are supported via the GigEVision standard, so theoretically it should even be possible to send a discovery message to a specific ip address (even if it is on a different network, like crossing a router). The best bet though is to check with both the driver manufacturer and camera manufacturer (if you're using third party software) to see if / how it's implemented in their tools. I hope that helps!

Answered by:
Matthew Breit
Sr. Engineer / Customization Specialist
Basler AG
Matt [dot] Breit [at] baslerweb [dot] com
610-280-0171

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What type of sensors are you looking for advice on? There are hundreds of sensors available in the industry, and many are used in robotics inspection. What kind of product are you inspecting, etc.?

Answered by:
Matthew Slaughter from Cyth Systems, Inc. - Vision Specialist
matt [dot] slaughter [at] cyth.com
(888) 508-7355

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Hi Steve - The answer depends on the details of your application. To be honest, there are very few (if any) off the shelf products using non laser structured lighting that get good 3D image data over an arbitrary volume of space with resolution sufficient for useful production gauging or assembly guidance at production rates. That being said, there are many systems that can be customized to your specific needs. Tell us more about what you are needing to do.

Answered by:
David Wyatt from Automation Doctor Incorporated - CEO
david [dot] wyatt [at] automation-doctor.com
(574) 344-7936

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Hi Gil, This is no problem. Please contact me directly at matt.breit@baslerweb.com and I can set you up with the SDK and put you in touch with local support to assist you.

Answered by:
Matthew Breit from Basler AG - Sr. Engineer
Matthew [dot] Breit [at] baslerweb.com
610-280-0171

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It is a common misconception that Industrial Automation is replacing workers and thereby creating unemployment. Most of us in the Machine Vision Industry make a living on our good names and reputation. It is a cornerstone in my company, for instance, to value the top resource my customers have: the knowledge about the production. I.e. my customers workers know more about how to produce their products than I can program into machines. However, I can make machines more efficient, consistent and reliable in many work tasks. My approach is therefore to automate to increase production volumes and product quality with the same amount of workers. This results in improved results for my customers as well as improved job descriptions for their workers. In the end this actually saves jobs that would be lost when inefficient factories otherwise would have moved to China or other low-wages countries.

Answered by:
K-J Fredriksson from Jessa Engineering - Consultant
kj [dot] fredriksson [at] home.se
(612) 284-4432

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Dear Mr Baradaran, I am not familiar with the concept of rebar production, but I am well aware of inspection projects where triangulation cameras mounted on trains can inspect the rail and spikes holding down the rail from locomotives moving at up to 60 miles/h with good results. The main problem is obviously issues related to direct sunlight as in all outdoor applications. Feel free to contact me for more info. I believe I can point you in the right direction on this. Best Regards, K-J Fredriksson, info@JessaEngineering.com

Answered by:
K-J Fredriksson from Jessa Engineering - Consultant
kj [dot] fredriksson [at] home.se
(612) 284-4432

Dear Hassan, in similar application our lasers are used together with 3d camera. please refer to our Product line ZQ that we can provide with shock test certificate for use in railroad industry. A single or multilineprojection with our product Z1000Q808 with extended depth of focus will do the job. Since it is a outdoor application the laser will be used together with a camera with narrow bandpass filter attached. The filter according to the laser wavelength we can provide too. For further information please contact my colleague Gary Rees (rees@z-laser.de).

Answered by:
Thomas Lang from Z-Laser America Inc. - CEO
lang [at] z-laser [dot] de
49 761 296 44 44

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Bob, I suggest you contact one of the several integrators and vendors based in Minnesota. A good portion of them hold classes for their customers on a monthly bases and have equipment, training material, etc prepared already. I'd be surprised if they would charge you much if at all to teach your students and potential future customers. I would start with vendors SICK, Banner and PPT Vision all based in the Minneapolis region and their integrator partners: http://www.sick.com/us/en-us/home/about_sick/partners/Pages/sick_vision_integrators.aspx http://www.pptvision.com/partners.html http://www.bannerengineering.com/en-US/support

Answered by:
K-J Fredriksson from Jessa Engineering - Consultant
kj [dot] fredriksson [at] home.se
(612) 284-4432

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Hello Ray; Most suppliers of LED illumination sources sell a control unit that supplies variable length pulses to an LED light, and many also vary the current. If your LED illumination vendor does not have such a controller, I would recommend that you check the Gardasoft products (www.gardasoft.co.uk). They offer a diverse selection of controllers designed to work with most any LED source. Regards, David

Answered by:
David Dechow from Aptúra Machine Vision Solutions - President
ddechow [at] aptura [dot] com
(517) 272-7820, x11

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There are approximately 40 suppliers of machine vision components and systems in the Midwest (you can search our online buyer's guide at http://www.machinevisiononline.org/buyers_guide/company_search.cfm). Your selection of a supplier will depend on your company’s specific needs. After you determine your needs, the next question to ask is whether you need a single component (such as a camera, imaging board, lighting, etc.) or a complete system. Should you need a complete system, please note that systems are highly specialized; that is, designed for a specific industry. You would therefore want to whittle down the list to those system providers that serve your industry and then proceed to research these companies by first visiting their websites and then contacting them with a list of specific questions. (Contact info provided.) Some system providers have off-the-shelf, turnkey systems. Others are system integrators; their task is to custom-make a system that provides an application geared to your company’s specific needs. But the starting point in any case is identifying your company’s specific needs. To the extent that you have a clear understanding of these needs, your task will be easier. Finally, please note that AIA does not endorse specific companies.

Answered by:
Paul Kellett from AIA - Director, Market Analysis
pkellett [at] robotics [dot] org
(734) 994-6088

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The definitive market study for the machine vision industry is published each year by the Automated Imaging Association (AIA) and may be purchased from them on the MachineVisionOnline.org website. This study contains all of the information you're seeking with the breakouts you mention. Frost and Sullivan also publishes a couple of machine vision related studies that might be of interest (www.frost.com). Good luck with your research. David

Answered by:
David Dechow from Aptúra Machine Vision Solutions - President
ddechow [at] aptura [dot] com
(517) 272-7820, x11

The 2008 AIA Market Study forecasts demand for Gig E Vision, Camera Link, IEEE-1394, other digital and analog cameras out to 2012. The forecast takes into consideration the competing value propositions of Gig E Vision, Camera Link and other interface technologies, recognizing the likely cross-elastic relationships between them. For an understanding of these relationships, and the latest machine vision camera forecasts broken down by interface technology and other important features, the AIA study is highly recommended. A break-down by end-user application is, however, not provided, as this would assume total knowledge of distribution channels by the manufacturer (from manufacturer to end user), which is typically not the case.

Answered by:
Paul Kellett from AIA - Director, Market Analysis
pkellett [at] robotics [dot] org
(734) 994-6088

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